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Badger said:

Also because running a debate tournament just now, real life work, might be a bit before I do the Mazer game. Have ideas but not had the time to put them down so will gladly step aside if anyone has anything ready to go.

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I was thinking I might run a standard old fashioned game as a palate cleanser if anyone is interested

I do feel bad about the @Tildey kill - forgive me =( I rolled a die...

Mazer said:

A counter negotiation there could have been fun.

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On the surface. Not for me though because it would basically be a "choose which side you want to help win, and no matter what you choose you lose."

Listo95 said:

Could have easily had killed you

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Well yeah. But I didn't know that - I did know the scum could for sure. I would have preferred to have helped town, but I *knew* that would get me ded.

I personally think I should have been able to actually join town to win with them if I'd wanted. Knowing the scum would probably murder me if I didn't help them effectively made me have to choose between ignoring my own wincon or being an eighth scum by force

Matthieu said:

Thanks for the game!

I agree with Listo in that the game felt a little too unbalanced in terms of what town could bring to the table. I won't lose any sleep over it, though I stand by my earlier statement that it just isn't fun to suddenly have a bunch of people effectively openly out themselves as scum only for town to be utterly unable to do anything about it. I think there needs to be some form of counter to third parties openly siding with one faction over the other as well.

It's why I was joking about having a day kill.

I'll admit a lot of this is probably just personal pet peeves at play though. Either way, I'm not mad over it.

My apologies to Kryllian - it's probably obvious but I tracked Dreyski, saw Iron Bull seemingly attack you and convinced myself you were scum or a third party with a bullet proof vest.

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I wanted to side with town - and had in fact been scum hunting and trying to solve; which you picked up on. The issue is specifically with a survivor wincon; the player is incentivized to be anti-town.

If a player is too pro-town it will draw attention from the scum and they die and lose, whereas they only need to keep from being the most sus person to avoid the ire of the town. And in end game their hand is forced to help the scum if they don't want to be killed out of revenge - even if the scum team were hurt and in danger of losing... they can drag the survivor down with them if they won't help them - and what town would bother to stop that?

We gunna get dead chat @Mazer ?

As for the D1 yeet.. I vaguely remember something someone said at some point about how statistically D1 wolf yeets lead more often to town losses... and I can see the internal workings of that having now been in the eye of the storm so to speak.

Because the situation around Grumpy and future was extremely suspect... and the whole scenario made me convinced he was scum - and then I started making other incorrect connections and assumptions based off that conclusion... which just led to a whole rabbit hole of mucked reads, and THAT ultimately made people wrong about me...

In the future if we yeet scum D1 - I will consider the things I find suspicious around the circumstances, but will make a conscious effort not to become blinded by them.

Anyway... this was a fun and interesting game, but I feel it probably favored the scum personally when you consider that the embarrassing and depressing truth here is:

I was *trying* to townside initially. I was just very, very wrong. I am so sorry satsu. There is definitely an element of good scum play that helped them, because even though I had itches about Void and Psycho back on D2, there wasn't anything weighty enough to make me convinced I wasn't just paranoid about them. As long as I thought grumpy was scum MTR statistically wasn't going to be. And lettuce and claws both got ignored until I broke out of my incorrect tunnel on grumpy.

But then D4 when I finally had the fog cleared from grumpy's flip.... well half the town was already wanting to yeet me - with the exception of listo and Matt who were reading me correctly, and then I realized what the numbers were at. I didn't expect a town that had decided I was scum to let me live through 6 other yeets, and the scum team would probably have revenge murdered me if I had tried anyway.

So my role being a survivor actually made me have to scum side ultimately if I wanted to reach my wincon.

GrumpyCat said:

There was supposed to be one mafia. Did I get it wrong?

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There was a mafia - future

rock meets hard place said:

no cookies unless you hammer mtr

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That's not a very enticing cookie offer.
Vote: Matthieu

I want rock to offer me cookies. He's been mean to me all game.

MTR said:

Pretty sure Diva plans on bring cookies to the Rumble meetup.....

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!!!! Cookies?

Who wants to offer me cookies? And what kind of cookie?

If scum goes over today that means we start night with 3v4v1 -- and if scum waste the night phase killing the 3p they have no chance of winning. They would have to shoot town to even things back again I believe?

Dress in drag and do the hula?

Foxxi would also appreciate the knife be disposed of. Threats are very uncouth.

Actually.... if maj is legit 5 and not 4 because of yesterday's tie..... neither scum nor town can hit maj by themselves if I am mathing correctly.

Unvote: Mazer
Curiosity satisfied

Unvote: Matt
Vote: Mazer

Curiosity

wait, what killed Val?

I hope this isn't one of those we needed to yeet the mod to actually win games

He really is

Although I am reading the write up and something targeted Mazer.... what the fuck is that?

Listo95 said:

Night should be thankful Listo is a benevolent person.

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*hugs* I love you, I really do.

This is where I vote for Void right?

CRichardFoL said:

You can say that again. We better hope there is KP who can pick off scum at night.
Of course if we're in the funny world where Psycho and I are TvT, then it's what it is.

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I seriously doubt that's a world we are in XD

Also for the record @CRichardFoL - I don't feel like you've been toxic. Strong-willed and thickheaded maybe. But not toxic =p

CRichardFoL said:

I also didn't know you guys ran Throne of Lies setup in FM format. Geez, I missed out.

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I'm sure we will again. We've done it a couple of times

Oh for fucks sake. I converted time wrong >.<

VoidKitten said:

Day ended already. Vote swaps do nothing now.

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Wait, what? I thought we had another hour?

I will laugh my ass off if LDG - one of the lurkiest people we have - is the inactivity vig. Would explain a lack of kills though.

Listo95 said:

Listo may be battered and down for now. But Listo will always rise again. A Listo always exists in every generation. The forces of Hell will never win in the end.

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I liked when you saved all the foxes.

Whelp this is something.
Vote: Richard

PsychoSoldier said:

Eh, I'm at work, so my posting/catch-up is gonna be intermittent again, and I managed to get most of the way through pg. 17

Vote: Nightingale

Something just not feeling right here. Even if you guys end up hammering me, I think you all need to take a serious look at her. I can't get over the trio of her/rock/CRichard and how it reads as either two town catching on to scum Night or one of CR/rock latching into the others read to push town!Night. I'm leaning rock and CRichard as most likely town. So I'm happy to push this until further notice

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You should look for your misyeet elsewhere psycho.

PsychoSoldier said:

I don't know who all is voting me right now but if I had to guess, it's because they're worried about whatever night actions could stop them from guaranteeing a victory and not getting outed.

There's also you on my wagon already unless you moved

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I unvoted after LDG voted so we wouldn't hit premature hammer again.

PsychoSoldier said:

Kinda feeling like this string of posts from CRichard is just confirming them as town for me. It's very self-important in a towny way.

Honestly feel it's T/T with LDG for the same reason

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Except if you, richard, and LDG are all town, why hasn't the scum team ended you yet? You have four votes (one of which is listo who you also say you think is town) and we had 6 scum actions last night. With 6 scum and only 7 town why wouldn't the scum team join the supposed three town voting you for the misyeet?

He said he'd be intermittent but he's been poof.

Psycho >.<

Psychoooooooooo I want an answer

I kinda wonder if he's going to bother to come back and answer me

@PsychoSoldier - I am interested in hearing your legacy reads, what your PoE looks like, and what you think the game composition is.

Even if there are only 5 scum we still need every single town to vote together to manage without 3p or scum help if I'm doing the math correctly

If there are actually 6 scum and not 5 we can't even hit majority on a scum unless they bus or every single town votes and the 3p helps, soooooooo....

Dreyski said:

According to writeup, BN was targeted by Listo, Iron Bull, Jackie, Claws and CMT. I have three working theories:
1. There's a hidden action, for Mod reasons.
2. It's a limitation of the power (must have 1 scum in the people you choose)
3. Psycho isn't in communication wth the rest of his team (I think Mazer or Void have done this one before). They know who he is, but not vice versa.

And I don't know how the Robot devil targeted a hider, although Jarrod's flip did reveal 'hider variant' I know Mazer sometimes has peculiar rules about hiders. But that's moot until endgame.

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I could see any of these as plausible, especially option 3 if the team began as 7 - having one of them not fully in the loop would make sense.

Unvote: Psycho
Consider my vote here, I just don't want a repeat of yesterday. I for one am still chewing on figuring out the write up

Though that means we have six red actions last night actually, not five...

Nightingale said:

I kinda don't think the person who has been assumed to be roleblocked N1 calls this out XD

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Edit to add:
As scum that is - obviously he did call it out

Kryllian said:

The Elusive Man made their first night appearance. The fact they didn't do anything N1 makes me wonder if they are a limited action, it was sacrificed for the double kill ability N1, or they were AFK and didn't get an action in....

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I kinda don't think the person who has been assumed to be roleblocked N1 calls this out XD

And how did the devil even target jarrod if jarrod was hiding behind BN? For that matter how did jarrod get pointed at BN to begin with if he was hiding? Not that it really matters I guess since jarrod is dead and proven town. I just can't make heads or tails of what actually happened here.

Why would scum redirect themselves to their kill? Why give town a group of names with a guaranteed scum in it?

Like.... they could just direct a bunch of people at someone, and then have someone else kill that person, probably with a strongarm type kill incase any of the people they pointed that way did any protection actions. But then we should see six people having targeted BN and I don't see it.

Though now that I am really digging into the write up.... there are things that don't make sense about this whole thing...

I think the point being made is based off the write up we see that the players: Listo, Jarrod, Rock, Matthieu, and Dreyski all seem to have been forced to do whatever they were trying to do to BN instead of whatever targets they chose. We can then look and see that the characters: Listo, Iron Bull, jackie, claws, and CMT all have interactions with BN... meaning one of those five players should be the scum CMT. Jarrod died and was town, so that leaves one of you, rock, matt or drey to be CMT.

MTR said:

Any particular reason for me and llettuce?

I can understand Void and maybe Psycho.

I hate trying to read claws because I tend to tunnel on him being scum. So I tend to wait and see what others think.

I feel like listo is town.

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Same reason I gave claws. PoE.

Because I re-evaluated. Duh? That's how this game is played, you form thoughts, get new info and re-think. I was already starting to think after that spat we had that it seemed odd behavior for scum. And then seeing that grumpy was in fact town shifted things, consider:

My prior thought process was convinced grumpy was scum- which made richard avoiding voting on grumpy D1 in favor of throwing a random vote onto MTR odd to me. But since grumpy was town, that means that if richard were scum he would have had *every reason to join the grumpy train* to try and save future. And instead he put a vote out in a place where it did nothing to help future. Ergo- town. Logic.

Claws said:

how odd that cr isnt in there now can you explain why i am im just curious

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Poe. I feel more strongly about everyone else as being town. I've seen nothing from you this game that makes me think you are.... anything. Which is frankly sus all by itself because *usually* the more sus I am of you the more likely you are to be town.... but that hasn't happened here.

Well I guess I can throw my jarrod tinfoil away... and being completely wrong about grumpy also convinces me I was wrong about richard. He could have voted grumpy D1 instead of future to make a counter train instead of a random useless vote on MTR to try and save future if he were partnered.

MTR/Void/Psycho/lettuce/claws/listo

I'm willing to yeet any of these

That vote from LDG is completely NAI. There's a possibility I'm wrong about her being town, but she doesn't play how you would expect

VoidKitten said:

I don't understand how you can ask someone for their PoE and then demand they replace people you disagree with :D

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I didn't demand anything? I asked who he would consider replacing those people with.

CRichardFoL said:

I'm not particularly disposed to thinking you're town still. That being said, I'll get back to you once I'm not occupied with real life and have a clearer head.

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You don't have to think I am town to engage with me - I'm still not fully convinced on you. I am explaining why BN is likely clear as scum as part of that and instead of reading and considering the explanation you are shutting down. If you are town here, this is not helpful.

Oops, I still have my start of a comment up there. Was going to say Void is pinging me the more I think about him. Especially if richard is town.

Void is

Nightingale said:

I don't think BN, Val or LDG are scum. I know you probably won't care what I have to say about it but eh. BN looked to be both roleblocked and had some other action (which I honestly can't identify) done to him N1 by scum. It's not impossible that's a ploy but I really doubt it. Val and LDG I've stated several times - they are often easy misyeets because of their playstyles, but I don't see either of them as scum here. LDG replied to a post future made D1 and unvoted (off of someone else, MTR I think?) in a way that just didn't feel partnered; and she didn't even re-vote to try to save him. And Val's vote on future isn't something I see him doing as scum. He doesn't like to bus, and he knows sleep would have been a perfectly acceptable vote if he'd wanted to avoid a partner.

If you remove those three - who would you replace them with?

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@CRichardFoL can you read and respond to this please?

I also don't really think jarrod or listo are scum honestly, I just feel stronger about all the other players as town if richard is also town

If I am wrong about richard, my poe would look like this:

Void, psycho, lettuce, grumpy, claws, jarrod, listo. Maybe fringe matthieu is fooling me, but I am inclined to think he is just town here.

Also - I don't see any world in which MTR/grumpy/future were ALL scum out of 4 names. I think if grumpy is town MTR might be scum, but I doubt they both are

CRichardFoL said:

And yes Nightingale is colored green for the hypothetical world she's town. Maybe I'm tunneled here, yet that post on Rock and I is horrendous by all measures.

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I don't think BN, Val or LDG are scum. I know you probably won't care what I have to say about it but eh. BN looked to be both roleblocked and had some other action (which I honestly can't identify) done to him N1 by scum. It's not impossible that's a ploy but I really doubt it. Val and LDG I've stated several times - they are often easy misyeets because of their playstyles, but I don't see either of them as scum here. LDG replied to a post future made D1 and unvoted (off of someone else, MTR I think?) in a way that just didn't feel partnered; and she didn't even re-vote to try to save him. And Val's vote on future isn't something I see him doing as scum. He doesn't like to bus, and he knows sleep would have been a perfectly acceptable vote if he'd wanted to avoid a partner.

If you remove those three - who would you replace them with?

And also, assume you are wrong about me and tell me why matthieu is scum

CRichardFoL said:

If we're not going to go with Nightingale, then LDG, GC and Matthieu aren't bad choices where I'm at.
I don't have good reasons to think those 3 are town.

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Assume there are five scum remaining and you are wrong about me. Who else is in your poe?

I repeat. Pretend for a moment we're both town being stupid. What does your poe look like?

CRichardFoL said:

I'm asking if you're going to TMI me town to try to placate me, like you did with Rock.

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I didn't try to placate rock. I genuinely felt like his reaction *to that situation when he was in a heated debate with me* was a town perspective. You doing it some hour later over how I voted someone else is not the same at all.

CRichardFoL said:

This is for @Nightingale. If they don't answer, they are outed scum.

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What even is this?

CRichardFoL said:

You forget I have nothing to lose pushing you.

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Alright. Let's pretend for a moment that we're both town butting heads. What would your poe look like?

*yawn* go on and dig yourself your hole, would you like a shovel?

I guess this is where I am. It's possible Matt/Drey/Kryllian are all in cahoots and tricking me, but eh.

BN
Matthieu
Drey
Kryllian
LDG
Val
Jarrod
Rock
MTR
Listo
Claws
Psycho
Void
Lettuce
Richard
Grumpy

Unvote: Matthieu
Vote: Grumpy

Matthieu said:

Are you suddenly incapable of reading my other post where I mentioned that there was more to it than the writeup, though due to the rules I cannot claim?

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No... I just am having a hard time understanding why drey coming in and saying "nah bro not kryllian" somehow negates whatever you were thinking. I'm so fucking confused right now.

Matthieu said:

No. I misread something in the write-up, convinced myself that Kryllian had a BPV that popped and that he was either a serial killer or a godfather. I do learn from my mistakes and I recognised I was stubbornly doubling down in the same way I convinced myself that you were scum in that game a while back where I insisted you had to be lying when you weren't.

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Okay, I hate this. We had this conversation yesterday- there was only one action on kryllian to even interpret in the write up and you seemed to be the only person thinking it was an attack instead of a roleblock -- so when you stayed adamant about it I thought you were trying to subtly say you knew it was an attack. Now you're saying you interpreted it wrong which means you *didn't* actually have info and were just trying to get Kryllian yeeted because.... you thought you read it better than the rest of us??
Vote: Matthieu

Dreyski said:

Why would he fakeclaim to get someone potentially cleared of seven non-town roles yeeted? Why would he stake his life on it and then back down?

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That's my point though? What does he have to gain from doing that as scum? I mean, I've seen Matthieu do some crazy shit - but usually when he is under more pressure than that. So to me it seems more likely he's town and just... confused?

Matthieu said:

Unvote: Kryllian

If Dreyski doesn't think Kryllian is the way to go then I'll respect that.

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I did not expect this. You were absolutely certain earlier and I don't see what changed for you

me, he's offering himself in exchange for me.... which, that I actually kinda town read. He's wrong about me, but the willingness to put his own neck on the line for it - I don't think that comes from scum who know they'll be proven wrong

Dreyski said:

Well, quite. I was thinking strongman kills and the like. But I don't see any of that N1. The closest is a double kill (one off? motivated?

I'm now trying to think of a scenario where Matthieu gives his info in good faith. I'm really trying.

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He may be confused or just wrong - but what makes you think it would not be in good faith?

rock meets hard place said:

why is 7 unlikely?

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In a game this size I wouldn't expect the scum team to have more than 6. It's not impossible they started with 7 I suppose, but the past several games have had a team of 6

rock meets hard place said:

Even if kyrll was roleblocked I don't think that 100% means he can't be scum. It assumes that all scum acted and were in the write up and scum can't have a passive role. Also I think there was a scum action b4 the "block"

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We saw 5 red characters act (and future was a dead 6th), and the 3p - if he was roleblocked the probability of him being scum is pretty damn slim. It would mean the scum team had to start with 7, which I find unlikely.

CRichardFoL said:

And why can't Rock and I be town/town?

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Because I currently have you both in my poe for different reasons. It's not impossible I'm wrong about you both, but I think there's probably at least one scum between you two.

CRichardFoL said:

Seriously? You make a sitting on the fence post like this Night? Thanks for giving something I hate more than Rock's double standards.

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How is it sitting on the fence? I've been saying all day that I don't like either of you... and now you at each other's throats. It makes me almost think I can't be right about you both, but then I I'm not sure which one is the more likely scum. Or if this is some brilliant theatre.

Though if listo is town, and matt is town my poe is all screwed up

I'm not sure which of rock and richard I like less atm

VoidKitten said:

Town.

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Agree.

Unvote: Kryllian
For now - while I mentally chew on this

Ngl I don't hate that kryllian post either, but I also don't really think Matthieu is lying about what he thinks he knows? We were warned there would be shenanigans going on, although I feel like there needs to be *some* hint somewhere to lead in the correct direction.... but that may just be my own mod opinion

rock meets hard place said:

but I think it's odd for you to vote said player and then rag on me for assuming that flips scum. Like, it makes no sense for me (or you) to assume that its 3rd party instead of mafia.

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I think it's odd that you assumed info = red, and then started declaring what we should do tomorrow based off that. I also think your defensiveness about it instead of just a "oh shit, it could be something else, I didn't think that through fully" is sus

Nothing in the info claimed specified he had to be red.

Lmao that series of Rock posts reads like he already knows what Kryllian will flip as.

Unvote: Grumpy
Vote: Kryllian

Though at this point it really doesn't matter. Now that this has even been brought up and discussed without just getting a response from Matthieu it's nullified, eh.

VoidKitten said:

This is one of the first things you've said that makes me look at you a little sideways.

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It seems to me if we assume kryllian was shot and survived because of a vest, there are two characters he would likely be. I'm trying to figure out matthieu's motives for pushing there.

Aaaaaaaanyway.... Matthieu how sure are you about kryllian? Enough to stake your own life if you are wrong?

Also possible he knows he's sus to a bunch of people and is trying to make us think jester as a defense I suppose