Fingers of Suspicion

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Mafia 1 - Throne of Suspicion

Xanjori

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I'm not sure I follow. What reason do we have to trust you right now, and why would someone blocking you be ridiculous? And if you think that kareemah or matthieu could be cult, why are you voting on me? And if you're suspicious of both myself and matthieu - again, why vote me instead of letting me go after another target you are suspect of? None of what you are saying is making any sense to me. And you aren't even considering you may not have been targeted, it could have been *who* you targeted.

Unvote:

And Id know if my target was blocked, but either my targets are doing nothing (unlikely) are recruiting (I guess possible) then I am being blocked. If its the middle one

Vote: Val
 

Xanjori

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Nevermind Ive misunderstood part of my class mechanic. Still Val seems a good choice.
 

Xanjori

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Also there are only a few people we've not had roleclaims from correct? Val and Foxxi?
 

Foxxi

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I thought you were claiming maid? How are you able to know if a target was blocked?

As for myself, I have claimed. Just not blatantly like most. I'm also a butler. I was lamenting jarrod not having filled out his logbook because I wondered if he had redirected you to me last night. I used my final charge of concentrated wine because I thought people might try to target me and it would allow me to prove my action.
 

morrison

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maid GIF
i suspect some people took this reply you made towards listo claiming maid as your way of claiming it yourself. satsu said as much in the post directly after this gif.
 

Xanjori

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Also if I understand correctly. Foxxi is claiming that if MTR has a positive result on her it was due to her being swapped. For that to be the case it has to be from a converted Butler or Wizard no? So if Foxxi is adamant that thats the case, shouldnt we be voting the claimed Butler or Wizard?
 

Xanjori

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i suspect some people took this reply you made towards listo claiming maid as your way of claiming it yourself. satsu said as much in the post directly after this gif.
Yeah but that wasnt me claiming. In fact the claims I made concerning Foxxi, and the stuff Ive claimed to be able to check could have only come from one class.
 

Foxxi

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It's not impossible. The roles are randomized, and there can be up to three of any given role unless it is unique, so I really don't doubt Kareemah also began as a butler.

I told badger N1 I was a butler, and D2 while I didn't outright claim - I was adamant that jarrod could not have killed anyone because he had been my N1 target. D3 I commented asking for assistance to help not be converted because if I had used my concentrated wine that night I would have prevented whoever tried to heal me from doing so.
 

morrison

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So you're just going to completely ignore the fact that I laid out how it's mechanically impossible for me to have been converted?

And it has nothing to do with how easy a target I am or not - MTR would have been the target of the frame ability - and then whoever he had checked, didn't matter *who* he would have been told cult. It just happened to be me.
so the only way for any kind of framed result is if we have a neutral scorned OR we had a noble/second mystic that got converted into the apostle.

for scorned, with how it reads, i believe they choose a target and that person, if an investigative ability is used on them, will come up with a different result than their true alignment. so the scorned would have targeted foxxi at some point, never took the mark off her, and mtr eventually targeted her to get a framed result.

the apostle targets the player with the investigative ability and turns the result they're given into a frame job.
 

Xanjori

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so the only way for any kind of framed result is if we have a neutral scorned OR we had a noble/second mystic that got converted into the apostle.

for scorned, with how it reads, i believe they choose a target and that person, if an investigative ability is used on them, will come up with a different result than their true alignment. so the scorned would have targeted foxxi at some point, never took the mark off her, and mtr eventually targeted her to get a framed result.

the apostle targets the player with the investigative ability and turns the result they're given into a frame job.
Like I outlined in my post a butler or Wizard can become The Invoker, who can
"Strings of Mithras (2x Night Action): Redirect a player to another player (or themselves)."
 

Xanjori

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The Butler does that one. The Wizard becomes Ritualist who

Teleportation (2x Night Action): You can target two players and cause all actions targeted at the two players to land on the other. You will be immune from occupying/redirecting yourself when using this ability. This cannot target the King.
 

Foxxi

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Like I outlined in my post a butler or Wizard can become The Invoker, who can
"Strings of Mithras (2x Night Action): Redirect a player to another player (or themselves)."
I'm not sure that would work that way? But maybe? It would depend on if he was told he got results for a target that was different than his intended one - which based on your own reaction on whatever day that was I feel he probably would.
 

Xanjori

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No, mine is specific due to my class ability. I doubt his works the same way as mine at all.
 

Foxxi

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Hrm. That's something I hadn't considered. If he was redirected he may not know who he got results for. And suddenly I am again really peeved Jarrod didn't fill out his log - because it could have been his action that moved MTR's for all we know.
 

Foxxi

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Seriously people. Fill out your logs, including the action you plan to take on any given night incase you don't see the next dawn -.-
 

Xanjori

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I wanna go to bed, so Id like to leave a vote that counts. I feel like people are ignoring how the plays can be made and thats just making me suspicious.
 

Foxxi

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Not ignoring, reading things over now that I have a different perspective. Hunter also becomes invoker it looks like, so if we think it was actually a redirect it could be that too. Though I'm not so sure I think Matthieu is actually cult anymore.
 

Xanjori

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I did suggest that earlier that if we think RB or misdirect in play then Butler and Hunter both become those things.
 

Foxxi

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I still think our best tactical play here is grae. He could be responsible for this, but even if he's not - the ability to threaten an extra death if he's removed is going to become more and more of a fear factor with smaller town numbers - if he's not cult now he will be prime material to become cult. And I can hammer him because until I flip those results are just going to confuse and distract people.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

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We can't afford to mislynch. There are 9 players alive. If the cult has 4 people then it's game over if we mislynch. Even if the cult only has 3 people, it is statistically unlikely that scum will hit a jailed target and their kill will be blocked. Whoever we lynch we want to make sure we think is the most likely to be scum. You yourself have been wavering back and forth on Graeham, so why the fixation on him? Who of the others do you think is most likely to be scum?
 

Foxxi

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We can't afford to mislynch. There are 9 players alive. If the cult has 4 people then it's game over if we mislynch. Even if the cult only has 3 people, it is statistically unlikely that scum will hit a jailed target and their kill will be blocked. Whoever we lynch we want to make sure we think is the most likely to be scum. You yourself have been wavering back and forth on Graeham, so why the fixation on him? Who of the others do you think is most likely to be scum?
His role worries me from a tactical standpoint. If he already is cult (which after last night I do feel is not as likely with how we interacted) - or he becomes cult, what then? Will anyone ever want to remove him with the fear that another town will die if we do? If he becomes cult I fear we just lose.

As for who I feel may currently be cult, I don't fucking know anymore. It's another reason why I am focused on what I can see as the tactics behind this - because this game is managing to confuse the fuck out of me at this point. I don't know which series of events actually took place, and without some idea of what I know I can believe, I don't know what then becomes impossible.
 
Day 8 Nomination - Matthieu

VoidKitten

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Final Day 8 Nomination Vote Count:

2 - Matthieu (Morrison #1548, Foxxi #1552)

2 - Foxxi (MTR #1549, Future #1550)
1 - Morrison (Kareemah #1575)
1 - Kareemah (Val #1599)
1 - Val (Xanjori #1601)

With 9 players alive, majority for nomination is 5 votes on a single player.

—--------------

As the tournament was going forth the King decided to return to a fan favorite event as he was having difficulty coming up with new random events to try. He declared today was axe throwing day. Well, before the event could get started, Ser Bertholdt swung once and felled all of the targets.

The King demanded further entertainment and bid upon people to put forth someone to throw better than Ser BertholdT.

The participants looked around and tossed around many names, but shrugged and decided to put Matthieu forth again, as he once more could attempt his seductive ways.

They surrounded Matthieu. “Tell us why you shouldn’t have to have an axe to grind with Ser Bertholdt.”

Matthieu is now on trial

All votes have been reset and you may begin voting for execute/pardon/abstain.

The trial phase will end at 8:00pm ET on Feb 1st or when majority on execute/pardon is reached.

With 8 people valid for this trial, 5 votes is the majority for execute/pardon.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

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Welp. We are at lylo. We can't acquit again begin scum will kill tonight. The physician is dead and I am out of Icy Veins so I can't protect, and again it is statistically unlikely that scum will hit Future's jail target. Our one and only hope is to lynch and hope we got scum, which means when they kill tonight they don't automatically win because they equal or outnumber town.

Vote: Matthieu
 

Matthieu

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Cult will likely win because of this fixation on me, since whoever gets the hammer on me is going to be eliminated as well so we'll be down another two players which is counterproductive to the blue dragon win condition. Not sure what the reluctance to look elsewhere is all about, either.
 

Kareemah

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Welp. We are at lylo. We can't acquit again begin scum will kill tonight. The physician is dead and I am out of Icy Veins so I can't protect, and again it is statistically unlikely that scum will hit Future's jail target. Our one and only hope is to lynch and hope we got scum, which means when they kill tonight they don't automatically win because they equal or outnumber town.

Vote: Matthieu
Nvm
Vote: execute
 

Kareemah

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Also if I understand correctly. Foxxi is claiming that if MTR has a positive result on her it was due to her being swapped. For that to be the case it has to be from a converted Butler or Wizard no? So if Foxxi is adamant that thats the case, shouldnt we be voting the claimed Butler or Wizard?
Honestly I’m not trusting Xanjori, the possibility of two butlers can happen but your claiming an action that we’re unable to do and also you seem to be implying that I should be put in trial
 

morrison

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Vote: execute

there's definitely tunnel vision on grae, but that's only really because there isn't much compelling about anybody else, either. we are getting nowhere at night. potentially useful info gathered at night has legit arguments against it because of mechanics. we can take the shot now, maybe it leads to a cult win, but continually pardoning and giving cult chances to double kill or recruit at night is just a slower form of defeat. we're not working a methodical parsing out of scum here, we're just constantly settling for inaction and then doing nothing when smacked in the face.
 

morrison

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Honestly I’m not trusting Xanjori, the possibility of two butlers can happen but your claiming an action that we’re unable to do and also you seem to be implying that I should be put in trial
he's saying if you were converted you'd have that action.
 

Foxxi

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Vote: execute

That puts him at L-1 -- no one else should vote to execute and I will be the final person on the train. We should still use the time we have to discuss things though.
 

Kareemah

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Guys I just forgot, Matthew could not have killed anyone last night, I served him wine last night
 

Kareemah

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So we have to look at someone else and hopefully no one dies tonight, prince should jail Foxxi or someone we’re suspicious of and I know for sure me and future are town
 

Val the Moofia Boss

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Goodness gracious you put the same guy on trial TWO DAYS IN A ROW and you want to acquit him twice? Get your act together folks. Don't put people on trial unless you're going to execute them
 

ForgottenHold

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Goodness gracious you put the same guy on trial TWO DAYS IN A ROW and you want to acquit him twice? Get your act together folks. Don't put people on trial unless you're going to execute them
Grae and Foxxi were tied when time ran out so it was randed. So we didn't put him on trial 2 days in a row, it was a bad roll. Also last time we voted someone out who we put on trial twice was LDG and she was town
 

Matthieu

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and if we pardon, we could lose someone to a recruit or up to two people to a kill during the night phase, mirroring the same thing we did last phase.
The cult are going to recruit someone either way if they gain the opportunity. Surely I don't need to explain how it's worse if two players are eliminated before that happens?

We supposedly have two butlers who can target me to keep me locked down at night, no? If that makes people feel better, then do that. It's the better option over letting me die, take someone out with my passive and then give cult free reign.

Remember, Kareemah targeted me last night so I didn't visit anyone. (Not that I could, given all my abilities are now used up.)
 

Kareemah

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The cult are going to recruit someone either way if they gain the opportunity. Surely I don't need to explain how it's worse if two players are eliminated before that happens?

We supposedly have two butlers who can target me to keep me locked down at night, no? If that makes people feel better, then do that. It's the better option over letting me die, take someone out with my passive and then give cult free reign.

Remember, Kareemah targeted me last night so I didn't visit anyone. (Not that I could, given all my abilities are now used up.)
What do u do when u visit people
 

Kareemah

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xan, i want you to serve wine to Matthew to prove you’re also a butler :) or whoever else is claiming the butler, who was it again
 

Kareemah

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Foxxi I think it would be a good idea if u served wine to Matthew or someone that’s known town to prove whether ur a butler or not
 

Matthieu

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What do u do when u visit people
The visit ability is called hunter's mark and basically had me targeting two players. If player A attacked player B, then I'd eliminate player A. It had four charges, though Listo stole one when he was eliminated and none of my targets attacked the players I was defending.

My other night ability was bear companion, which prevented me being attacked or converted on the nights I used it. If someone attacked me, they'd be killed - and if cult think I'm lying about not having any charges left, it may explain why there's such a heavy push to get rid of me since they'd lose one of their own.
 

Xanjori

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While I know my own participation has hardly been stellar Im a bit annoyed/disappointed how EOD went yesterday. Like Im pretty certain we had people around that could have decided upon a train after we reviewed the mechanics but simply nothing happened. You're all scum, all of you! Im the last sane person in this town.
 

Xanjori

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That sounds like an extremely shitty Bodyguard.
Mate I once played a bodyguard where I died and the person I was protecting died. I dont think Ive ever been so angry at a mod before.
 

Matthieu

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Foxxi, if you want to be the person to hammer me why did you put me at L-1? You're usually more cautious and insistent on doing things carefully - and I kind of keep going back on forth on whether you're to be trusted or not on that basis.

It does feel like bait despite your words, hoping that someone might change their vote or cast one without looking at more recent posts.
 

CWE

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Mate I once played a bodyguard where I died and the person I was protecting died. I dont think Ive ever been so angry at a mod before.
That happened to me playing Town of Salem. A jester haunted my bg target. And it was pestilence that i attacked anyway so I was screwed.
 

Matthieu

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And just didnt fancy voting at all at any point before that?
I believe I put a vote out but unvoted before I headed out. I honestly didn't think I'd be put on trial two day phases in a row without a serious attempt to look elsewhere. Silly of me in hindsight but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't feeling burnout given how long this game has been going so far.
 

Foxxi

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Foxxi, if you want to be the person to hammer me why did you put me at L-1? You're usually more cautious and insistent on doing things carefully - and I kind of keep going back on forth on whether you're to be trusted or not on that basis.

It does feel like bait despite your words, hoping that someone might change their vote or cast one without looking at more recent posts.
The same reason Satsu did yesterday. To put myself at the end like I promised I would, and warned others not to join after.

And yes. Kareemah and I could take alternating turns blocking matthieu potentially. But that won't prevent him from *getting* converted. And I am tired of having to say this:

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENS IF HE IS????

NO one is going to yeet him - OBVIOUSLY - based on these past two days. If we don't remove him we are handing the cult a perfect recruit. Unless future wants to just sit on him for the rest of the game and jail no one else.
 

Matthieu

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You're overthinking it, Foxxi. There's really no need to focus on me to this degree and you're going to lead us to a loss by doing this, I guarantee it.

I haven't been recruited and this 'perfect recruit' scenario doesn't hold under scrutiny since it's the cult who stand to worry over my potential ability to kill them at night with WIFOM, not blue dragon.

If you want to commit suicide in the game then do it on your own, Foxxi. Propose yourself as the target during the next day phase but please don't throw the game because you're fixated on one extremely niche potential.

And in the event that you're scum, I'll admit this is just turning me off from playing these games for a while since throwing LDG and me under the bus like this isn't great.
 

Foxxi

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Yes Grae, I'm scum. Totally. Which is why I'm willing to potentially kill myself to remove what I perceive to be a danger to the town because of the nature of cult games.
 

Matthieu

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You're not removing a danger, you're throwing the game. If you're going to throw darts at the wall in the hope that something sticks then maybe you should be taking a more unconventional approach and...actually pushing one someone other than me. Which is something you've done all game for some strange reason.
 

Foxxi

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Cult games are not the same as typical mafia. It's not only about trying to remove people you suspect as cult, but also removing the places they can *hide* when you don't have better leads -- because just look at this day - We are all spread all over the place because we don't know who to suspect. And what happens if we pardon matthieu here and tomorrow comes and no one is dead? We didn't have any good idea who to go for the previous day. And now you can toss Matthieu back into that pile because why wouldn't the cult recruit someone who has been put on trial twice and let go? So what do we do tomorrow?
 

Foxxi

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God I *wish* I were cult this game. I feel like I am trying to talk logic to a wall
 

Matthieu

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You're not being logical. You've done this before, Foxxi - you're a good player, but you're doing what I did to Voidkitten a while back. I was so convinced that Void was pulling some trickery that I pushed to eliminate him and it proved to be the wrong move and cost us the game.

It doesn't matter that it's a cult game - if you claim to be blue dragon, then there's no reason to deliberately off yourself. There's only eight players left, two of which die if we go with your plan. Which brings us to six players.

One of those is neutral - CWE - and wins through surviving to the end of the game. That brings us to five players.

Of those five, how many could be cult? What's the best scenario and the worst scenario?

Why do you repeatedly refuse to consider other angles? For example, I'm not saying he'll do it but Cult could easily communicate with CWE and give him a heads up to use his kill emerald potion ability to take someone out and ensure that blue dragon lose by being outnumbered. You recall, I hope, that time Listo screwed over town in the fae game a while back?
 

Matthieu

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I'm saying this since you're one of the players I look to as someone who I can count on to examine things from different angles but you're not doing that this time around and so I'm having to do it - but then anything I say seems to just be going in one ear and out the other. If someone else weighs in with their thoughts and it doesn't align with your plan, you dismiss them as well.

So please stop looking at it through the perspective of eliminating me with execute and start actually playing to win. If you're not prepared to then by all means, pardon me and vote to execute yourself during the next day phase if you're so intent on throwing the game. Just please, please do not drag me down with you.
 

CWE

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For example, I'm not saying he'll do it but Cult could easily communicate with CWE and give him a heads up to use his kill emerald potion ability to take someone out and ensure that blue dragon lose by being outnumbered.
Let me save cult the trouble, no. I'm not killing anyone. It would break my rule on neutrals.
 

Matthieu

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Let me save cult the trouble, no. I'm not killing anyone. It would break my rule on neutrals.
I'm not saying you would - just that it's a potential thing that could happen. Which plays into my earlier statement, why isn't Foxxi pointing that out? Usually Foxxi's pretty good at examining how everything could fit together. Instead we're just seeing a very specific 'what if' pushed at every turn with minimal deviation.
 

Foxxi

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At most we have two cult members right now. Best case scenario, recruits failed and it's only one, but I doubt that since we saw kills last night. CWE being neutral doesn't worry me. If it were another player it might, but I had already felt like he's played to stay out of things mostly - and just earlier this morn he said he's not going to kill anyone this game and since he never lies that means he is harmless to us.

This game is confusing even me... which like I told Val last night is why I've been so heavily focused on trying to get a step ahead of what the cult could do. MTR has false results for me. Is he cult trying to get me misyeeted? Did he get framed? Was he redirected? I don't have any means to figure out which it is. If Jarrod had filled out his logbook, maybe I'd have a better idea - if he redirected MTR to someone that night though he took that info to his grave. I'm frustrated because usually I would have a narrow poe and in this style of game that is impossible.
 

Matthieu

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...but if you're trying to get one step ahead, how is broadcasting your intent in the thread playing into that? The cult will just cheer on 1-2 blue dragon being eliminated since it plays into their win condition. They don't just win through converting people, they win through killing people and having people executed.

They'll adjust their plans no matter how this day phase goes.
 

Matthieu

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Come to think of it, another reason for not eliminating two players at once comes in the form of what the cult can do with converts. Vote's can be restricted and tampered with and if it's true that you were framed, Foxxi, is that not coming from the same role with the ability to manipulate votes...?

Not that anyone with manipulated votes can confirm that they're manipulated, of course but still.
 

Foxxi

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...but if you're trying to get one step ahead, how is broadcasting your intent in the thread playing into that? The cult will just cheer on 1-2 blue dragon being eliminated since it plays into their win condition. They don't just win through converting people, they win through killing people and having people executed.

They'll adjust their plans no matter how this day phase goes.
Because come tomorrow morning, those 2 (possibly 3 since they could recruit tonight) cult will have two less people who they can hide in - increasing the odds that they will be found. And at that point you can begin to look for interactions, and who may have tried to defend or deflect away from them. The larger the pool of players the easier it is for the cult to blend in.

Right now we're looking for 1-2 people in 6 (+3 non-convertible). If you and I remove ourselves from the equation, then tomorrow if the cult recruits the remaining town will be looking for 2-3 in 4(+3) or if the cult chooses to kill we're looking for 1-2 in 2(+3) if we assume they would kill the non-convertibles but they didn't last time so who knows. It would probably be more like 1-2 in 4(+1) -- but that's also assuming they don't hit protected targets. It narrows in on them in a way where they will be easier to spot and will probably be more inclined to defend/deflect.
 

Foxxi

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Come to think of it, another reason for not eliminating two players at once comes in the form of what the cult can do with converts. Vote's can be restricted and tampered with and if it's true that you were framed, Foxxi, is that not coming from the same role with the ability to manipulate votes...?

Not that anyone with manipulated votes can confirm that they're manipulated, of course but still.
I'd thought that initially yes, but it's possible it was just a redirect- and in fact more likely I think. Since I don't think we have anyone left who's claimed a role that would convert to the apostle which has the frame ability.
 

Matthieu

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...but we don't need to kill two players to look elsewhere. That's my core point - and if you decide to hammer me and get eliminated as a consequence then what guarantee do you have in terms of others following your desired trajectory? It could very well end up with you looking on from the dead chat in frustration because the survivors are barking up the wrong tree.

Assuming you believe Kareemah to be telling the truth, in terms of locking me down at night, that takes the two of us out of the equation as being responsible for killing last night. Of the other players, then, who would you consider to be a likely candidate for the player who conducted the kill?
 

Foxxi

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...but we don't need to kill two players to look elsewhere. That's my core point - and if you decide to hammer me and get eliminated as a consequence then what guarantee do you have in terms of others following your desired trajectory? It could very well end up with you looking on from the dead chat in frustration because the survivors are barking up the wrong tree.

Assuming you believe Kareemah to be telling the truth, in terms of locking me down at night, that takes the two of us out of the equation as being responsible for killing last night. Of the other players, then, who would you consider to be a likely candidate for the player who conducted the kill?
Because come tomorrow morning what prevents either of us from having been converted? Just because we are town today doesn't mean we still will be tomorrow. And what method will anyone have to determine that?
 

Foxxi

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...but we don't need to kill two players to look elsewhere. That's my core point - and if you decide to hammer me and get eliminated as a consequence then what guarantee do you have in terms of others following your desired trajectory? It could very well end up with you looking on from the dead chat in frustration because the survivors are barking up the wrong tree.

Assuming you believe Kareemah to be telling the truth, in terms of locking me down at night, that takes the two of us out of the equation as being responsible for killing last night. Of the other players, then, who would you consider to be a likely candidate for the player who conducted the kill?
As far as who could have killed, it's easier to say who could not have. MTR in jail could not have. If you or kareemah were converted you would become invokers who cannot be blocked, and no one else was blocked as far as I know.
 

Matthieu

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Because come tomorrow morning what prevents either of us from having been converted? Just because we are town today doesn't mean we still will be tomorrow. And what method will anyone have to determine that?
If it happens, it happens. It hasn't happened so far, though, has it?

You can also apply that logic to anyone who can be recruited. It's not about killing people who can be converted, it's about killing people who have been converted.
 

Xanjori

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I'd thought that initially yes, but it's possible it was just a redirect- and in fact more likely I think. Since I don't think we have anyone left who's claimed a role that would convert to the apostle which has the frame ability.
Yes, yes I can do exactly that.
 
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