Mafia 7: Everyone Loves Listo. Except the Devil.

[Mazer]

Listo believes town was a little underpowered, especially with 7 starting scum.

It's always possible. And I'll make notes for next time on how to improve.

Couple thoughts though are that I think most scum teams lose that game. That draw was way better than average at power usage. And they still had one error. There was some potential for things to go wrong. A very experienced scum team was a lucky draw.

Foxxi as Jlaw was also a lucky draw for evil.

Really, the way the powers stacked up against what you had left.....I think pleaing to foxxi was really their only play.

If it had been someone who wanted to townside, or someone had something like "I think that town would be motivated to make sure Jennifer Lawrence gets whatever protection we have" or made threats, it could have gone different.

Or if town had been successful blocking either of the kills last night, it's probably game over for scum.

All in all, very, very close to me.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

It's also worth considering we started on the back foot losing Future so soon. The vote block from Badger fucked with out trajectory because we were purposely cannibalizing a bit for distancing, and then when Future got a block of votes, it was hard to pivot too strongly. I was trying to push Grumpy, but I had already said I didn't like Future so far and would have stood out like a sore thumb if I tried to push sleep of all things instead of just accepting Future and trying to avoid the hammer penalty. And others were in a similar position. It should have fallen apart sooner than it almost did.

 

[Xanjori]

Real sorry again for missing D1 completely, ty for letting me play for 8 hours I guess!

GG all

 

[VoidKitten]

I am still sad I didn't get to flip and blow everyone's minds.

 

[VoidKitten]

Twas a fun game! Thanks for hosting Mazer

 

[GrumpyCat]

It's also worth considering we started on the back foot losing Future so soon.

Best way to go is just sleep D1. Maybe D2 and D3 as well, needs further testing.

I never lost a game as town in rajah style game doing this.

Fun game ^^

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Also, everyone make sure that you wish Jarrod a Happy Birthday!

 

[Mazer]

Thanks everyone for playing.

I had a bit more weird elements in this one. I did want to see how could we really incentivize d1 in a way that made sense for it to add real value.

And of course it led to a scum death and continued the trend of town losing with d1 lynches.

 

[GrumpyCat]

I did want to see how could we really incentivize d1 in a way that made sense for it to add real value.

You disproved Abbi's law. You helped science.
Thx for a game.

 

[Mazer]

You disproved Abbi's law. You helped science.
Thx for a game.

 

[MTR]

Fun game and we had a really cool scum team. But town battled and it was close. Losing Future right off the bat through us off a bit and we recovered but then after the big bus drive move we were all outed basically. Definitely some luck went our way.

Extra cookies for Foxxi at the Rumble and no cookies for Mazer for fucking with me this morning with that final vote count.

As far as the whole voting thing. I had not seen a game were that many scum were able to vote in a block to kind of end things but I have been on the losing end of scum piling on and taking people out at the end of a game more than once on their way to victory and didn't phase me. It was just smaller numbers.

Thanks for the game Mazer!

I also hope the CRich and Kryillian play some more here.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

You disproved Abbi's law. You helped science.
Thx for a game.

This proved Abbi's Law actually

 

[GrumpyCat]

There was supposed to be one mafia. Did I get it wrong?

 

[GrumpyCat]

Crichard's fault. Didn't explain ;>

 

[Kryllian]

I’d be curious to see a list of night actions and resolutions. Looking back the writeuls still leave. A lot if confusion about what really happened.

 

[Dreyski]

I don't know how a town team with Nightingale, Void and Psycho is getting reamed so badly. The only explanation is at least one is non-town.

I mean, I wasn't wrong...

But I couldn't read anyone and didn't try to make a spreadsheet, so not my best showing.

 

[Foxxi]

There was supposed to be one mafia. Did I get it wrong?

There was a mafia - future

 

[Dreyski]

As far as the whole voting thing. I had not seen a game were that many scum were able to vote in a block to kind of end things but I have been on the losing end of scum piling on and taking people out at the end of a game more than once on their way to victory and didn't phase me. It was just smaller numbers.

There was the most recent rajah game (IIRC) where scum bascially railroaded the last day vote with consecutive posts, like they'd synchronised watches. Even as a townie, it was impressive to see.

 

[MTR]

There was the most recent rajah game (IIRC) where scum bascially railroaded the last day vote with consecutive posts, like they'd synchronised watches. Even as a townie, it was impressive to see.

The He-Man game the yellow team like steamrolled like a couple phases in a matter of minutes it felt like at the end. We went through multiple phases like bam bam bam. I was the losing survivor in that game with the like one of the coolest roles but it didn't get unlocked. :(

 

[Dreyski]

I’d be curious to see a list of night actions and resolutions. Looking back the writeuls still leave. A lot if confusion about what really happened.

For my part, N1 I blocked you & Matthieu saw me target you. N3 my intended target was Nightingale, but I got redirected to BN. N5 the game had finished.

 

[Foxxi]

Anyway... this was a fun and interesting game, but I feel it probably favored the scum personally when you consider that the embarrassing and depressing truth here is:

I was *trying* to townside initially. I was just very, very wrong. I am so sorry satsu. There is definitely an element of good scum play that helped them, because even though I had itches about Void and Psycho back on D2, there wasn't anything weighty enough to make me convinced I wasn't just paranoid about them. As long as I thought grumpy was scum MTR statistically wasn't going to be. And lettuce and claws both got ignored until I broke out of my incorrect tunnel on grumpy.

But then D4 when I finally had the fog cleared from grumpy's flip.... well half the town was already wanting to yeet me - with the exception of listo and Matt who were reading me correctly, and then I realized what the numbers were at. I didn't expect a town that had decided I was scum to let me live through 6 other yeets, and the scum team would probably have revenge murdered me if I had tried anyway.

So my role being a survivor actually made me have to scum side ultimately if I wanted to reach my wincon.

 

[CWE]

Night 1 I doc'ed Psycho (as I always do as doc). And died (as I usually do as doc).

 

[PsychoSoldier]

There was supposed to be one mafia. Did I get it wrong?

The Law doesn't say it can only be one scum. Just that the first wagon that gets to 3 votes is guaranteed to have 1 scum in the mix. In most cases it's exactly 1, but it's not a requirement of the law.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Night 1 I doc'ed Psycho (as I always do as doc). And died (as I usually do as doc).

Thanks boo

 

[Foxxi]

As for the D1 yeet.. I vaguely remember something someone said at some point about how statistically D1 wolf yeets lead more often to town losses... and I can see the internal workings of that having now been in the eye of the storm so to speak.

Because the situation around Grumpy and future was extremely suspect... and the whole scenario made me convinced he was scum - and then I started making other incorrect connections and assumptions based off that conclusion... which just led to a whole rabbit hole of mucked reads, and THAT ultimately made people wrong about me...

In the future if we yeet scum D1 - I will consider the things I find suspicious around the circumstances, but will make a conscious effort not to become blinded by them.

 

[CWE]

The Law doesn't say it can only be one scum. Just that the first wagon that gets to 3 votes is guaranteed to have 1 scum in the mix. In most cases it's exactly 1, but it's not a requirement of the law.

I know how to fuck that stat up for the future.

 

[Dreyski]

The He-Man game the yellow team like steamrolled like a couple phases in a matter of minutes it felt like at the end. We went through multiple phases like bam bam bam. I was the losing survivor in that game with the like one of the coolest roles but it didn't get unlocked. :(

Found it, it was the WCW/WWF game Jarrod did. https://forums.rajah.com/showthread.php?t=155277&page=94
Specifically, posts 3751 to 3754 and then 3758 to 3761.

 

[MTR]

Oh yeah I remember that

 

[GrumpyCat]

I was *trying* to townside initially. I was just very, very wrong. I am so sorry satsu.

its all right. i am totally aware how tonaly scummy i am on grumpy. but if you looked on what i did and why i did it it should appear pro town. It pinged me.

Well played <3

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Thanks for hosting the game, Mazer!

 

[Foxxi]

We gunna get dead chat @Mazer ?

 

[Matthieu]

Thanks for the game!

I agree with Listo in that the game felt a little too unbalanced in terms of what town could bring to the table. I won't lose any sleep over it, though I stand by my earlier statement that it just isn't fun to suddenly have a bunch of people effectively openly out themselves as scum only for town to be utterly unable to do anything about it. I think there needs to be some form of counter to third parties openly siding with one faction over the other as well.

It's why I was joking about having a day kill.

I'll admit a lot of this is probably just personal pet peeves at play though. Either way, I'm not mad over it.

My apologies to Kryllian - it's probably obvious but I tracked Dreyski, saw Iron Bull seemingly attack you and convinced myself you were scum or a third party with a bullet proof vest.

 

[Mazer]

We gunna get dead chat @Mazer ?

As it was....

There wasn't much of one.

I tried to set up like you and void have. And I had where scum couldn't view the deadchat, but made an error where when people signed into my server (not realizing I should have got everyone in advance), cwe, tildey, badge, and future could see the scum chat. Since Listo could stump someone, I didn't send out other invites. I could have tried to fix it, but really didn't want to risk until listo chose. So, since there was a very limited deadchat.

Discord was.....not my friend this game.

 

[Matthieu]

its all right. i am totally aware how tonaly scummy i am on grumpy. but if you looked on what i did and why i did it it should appear pro town. It pinged me.

Well played <3

I'm sad you thought I was scum.

 

[Foxxi]

Thanks for the game!

I agree with Listo in that the game felt a little too unbalanced in terms of what town could bring to the table. I won't lose any sleep over it, though I stand by my earlier statement that it just isn't fun to suddenly have a bunch of people effectively openly out themselves as scum only for town to be utterly unable to do anything about it. I think there needs to be some form of counter to third parties openly siding with one faction over the other as well.

It's why I was joking about having a day kill.

I'll admit a lot of this is probably just personal pet peeves at play though. Either way, I'm not mad over it.

My apologies to Kryllian - it's probably obvious but I tracked Dreyski, saw Iron Bull seemingly attack you and convinced myself you were scum or a third party with a bullet proof vest.

I wanted to side with town - and had in fact been scum hunting and trying to solve; which you picked up on. The issue is specifically with a survivor wincon; the player is incentivized to be anti-town.

If a player is too pro-town it will draw attention from the scum and they die and lose, whereas they only need to keep from being the most sus person to avoid the ire of the town. And in end game their hand is forced to help the scum if they don't want to be killed out of revenge - even if the scum team were hurt and in danger of losing... they can drag the survivor down with them if they won't help them - and what town would bother to stop that?

 

[GrumpyCat]

I'm sad you thought I was scum.

I am sad you were not. But next time i will surely be right. I ll get you

 

[Mazer]

Next game everyone is scum

 

[rock meets hard place]

there were 8 town deaths between the mafia faction and the 3rd party. That kind of killing power is just kinda unfair.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

To be fair, one of those was a hider mechanic and the other was a 1x kill.

 

[MTR]

Yeah I don't think we had any more kills than any other scum team I have seen in games around here.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Without seeing all the powers outright, I can see how some felt that town was a bit underpowered here. Which would make sense considering Mazer is usually trying to make up for the townsided nature of the Rajah-style. I definitely expected more town kills to pop-off. But I know Badger's role scared the shit out of me, which is why I was happy we could anticlaim. It felt like more than anything we got lucky with a lot of our choices and the timing of most investigations headed our way. And I can see being mad or annoyed that we couldn't do what we did without taking a gamble on the survivor siding with us. But that was also a last ditch thing we basically had to do in order to avoid the house of cards, because that was the beginning of having almost having a whole town confirmed through night actions.

Balance is never gonna be perfect, and I do think we had a lot of good tools at our disposal that we used about as good as possible. It's always good to keep finding that right balance no matter what we do.

 

[Listo95]

Without seeing all the powers outright, I can see how some felt that town was a bit underpowered here. Which would make sense considering Mazer is usually trying to make up for the townsided nature of the Rajah-style. I definitely expected more town kills to pop-off. But I know Badger's role scared the shit out of me, which is why I was happy we could anticlaim. It felt like more than anything we got lucky with a lot of our choices and the timing of most investigations headed our way. And I can see being mad or annoyed that we couldn't do what we did without taking a gamble on the survivor siding with us. But that was also a last ditch thing we basically had to do in order to avoid the house of cards, because that was the beginning of having almost having a whole town confirmed through night actions.

Balance is never gonna be perfect, and I do think we had a lot of good tools at our disposal that we used about as good as possible. It's always good to keep finding that right balance no matter what we do.

Maybe the other JoaTs had kills. I only had the one shot. I technically shouldn't have even had that 2nd kill.

 

[rock meets hard place]

To be fair, one of those was a hider mechanic and the other was a 1x kill.

oh right, though not sure why he'd hide behind town.

 

[Listo95]

oh right, though not sure why he'd hide behind town.

They forced him.

 

[MTR]

oh right, though not sure why he'd hide behind town.

Well depending on what kind of hider he was determines who you try to hide behind. Sometime hiding behind scum gets you killed sometimes not.

 

[Mazer]

To be fair, one of those was a hider mechanic and the other was a 1x kill.

Listo also had kills. And town had multiple blocks and docs (including extra).


None of them hit.

 

[Mazer]

Well depending on what kind of hider he was determines who you try to hide behind. Sometime hiding behind scum gets you killed sometimes not.

Only behind scum performing a kill. Other scum wouldn't have

 

[Mazer]

Scum did identify jarrod as the hider on day 2.


That definitely helped them

 

[Mazer]

1 hit doc or roleblock, and town probably wins.

Also the first game scum had nobody hit the inactive killer, which definitely helped more too.

 

[CWE]

Well depending on what kind of hider he was determines who you try to hide behind. Sometime hiding behind scum gets you killed sometimes not.

Suicide bomber hider is the best kind of hider. I'm sure birthday boy Jarrod remembers TMNT2 and April.

 

[Foxxi]

I personally think I should have been able to actually join town to win with them if I'd wanted. Knowing the scum would probably murder me if I didn't help them effectively made me have to choose between ignoring my own wincon or being an eighth scum by force

 

[Matthieu]

Imagine how awkward it'd be for scum if I actually did have a day kill, though.

 

[Listo95]

I personally think I should have been able to actually join town to win with them if I'd wanted. Knowing the scum would probably murder me if I didn't help them effectively made me had to choose between ignoring my own wincon ot being an eighth scum by force

Could have easily had killed you

 

[Foxxi]

Could have easily had killed you

Well yeah. But I didn't know that - I did know the scum could for sure. I would have preferred to have helped town, but I *knew* that would get me ded.

 

[Mazer]

A counter negotiation there could have been fun.

 

[Foxxi]

A counter negotiation there could have been fun.

On the surface. Not for me though because it would basically be a "choose which side you want to help win, and no matter what you choose you lose."

 

[Mazer]

On the surface. Not for me though because it would basically be a "choose which side you want to help win, and no matter what you choose you lose."

Legal insinuation of protection would have been part of it.

I don't want to overcorrect here. I'm not sure the neutral party being identified and in a position where scum can offer a deal while outing themselves will be prevalent enough for a complete restructuring.

That said, I do typically believe 3rd party is the most challenging role.

I do give foxxinightslyph my full respect for directly finding the spot. Always a pro.

 

[VoidKitten]

oh right, though not sure why he'd hide behind town.

Once we realized Jarrod was the hider, we used the mass redirect + strongman to ensure jarrod would hide behind our kill target. We then moved everyone else thinking it would throw confusion into the game. We didn't realize targets would show for both.

 

[VoidKitten]

Imagine how awkward it'd be for scum if I actually did have a day kill, though.

I knew you were Toothless and knew there were at least 3 sets of EN/ON roles. I doubted you could even have a kill.

Like, the only reason we were so confident is that night we controlled every action except Vals. That then told us who everyone else was so we could aim actions and prevent yall from acting.

Listo was the only wildcard with that kill and I didn't expect that. We tried to stop it with our super block, but it was apparently unstoppable.

 

[Mazer]

The first 3 kills of Badger, Cwe, and Tildey were big as well.

Basically, all the scum kills went well, and town had bad luck on any counter.

 

[Tildey]

The first 3 kills of Badger, Cwe, and Tildey were big as well.

Basically, all the scum kills went well, and town had bad luck on any counter.

I was so mad at myself for missing the end of D1. I got swamped with work but thought I still had time to chime in & vote because I forgot it wasn’t a Void game.

 

[Foxxi]

I do feel bad about the @Tildey kill - forgive me =( I rolled a die...

 

[VoidKitten]

I do feel bad about the @Tildey kill - forgive me =( I rolled a die...

Clearly because Tildey…died

 

[VoidKitten]

I was so mad at myself for missing the end of D1. I got swamped with work but thought I still had time to chime in & vote because I forgot it wasn’t a Void game.

I feel like I should be offended. Unsure why but it feels right.

 

[Mazer]

Clearly because Tildey…died

 

[Tildey]

I feel like I should be offended. Unsure why but it feels right.

Don’t be offended. I was spoiled by your nice &regular end times.

 

[Tildey]

I do feel bad about the @Tildey kill - forgive me =( I rolled a die...

I wondered why me. Fine, you can still have extra cookies in January.

 

[Jarrod1983]

Once we realized Jarrod was the hider, we used the mass redirect + strongman to ensure jarrod would hide behind our kill target. We then moved everyone else thinking it would throw confusion into the game. We didn't realize targets would show for both.

Nice. I also knew you were scum. I wish I pushed it harder.

 

[Badger]

We gunna get dead chat @Mazer ?

You’re not missing much, just mainly me and CWE reminiscing about how JP and virm are the scummiest/neutral people alive in past games because Mazer cocked up and accidentally linked us to scum chat when we died so we knew all the spoilers.

 

[Badger]

Anyway congratulations you scummy bastards! I know I made myself obvious but had to use that four vote power within 24 hours of D1….but it worked, instigated a D1 lynch and I got to mess with Future in the process so don’t mind taking one for the team!

After that scum played very well, they were highly active and talking to each other all the time. A good highly active scum team will always be difficult to beat.

 

[Badger]

Also because running a debate tournament just now, real life work, might be a bit before I do the Mazer game. Have ideas but not had the time to put them down so will gladly step aside if anyone has anything ready to go.

 

[Foxxi]

Also because running a debate tournament just now, real life work, might be a bit before I do the Mazer game. Have ideas but not had the time to put them down so will gladly step aside if anyone has anything ready to go.

I was thinking I might run a standard old fashioned game as a palate cleanser if anyone is interested

 

[MTR]

I do feel bad about the @Tildey kill - forgive me =( I rolled a die...

When we were figuring out who you were that was the only that that gave me a bit of a pause because I didn't feel like you would have killed her that early. But that makes sense.

 

[Mazer]

I was thinking I might run a standard old fashioned game as a palate cleanser if anyone is interested

I once fashioned something old. I'd be in.

I support periodic palate cleansing. It keeps us from becoming whatever the mafia version of people with weird compulsions is.

"I can't get excited anymore about a mafia game unless it has 6 resurrections, 18 bastard elements, and is hentai themed"